Thoughts on Two Big Schools of Thoughts
This is a long post. It’s a bit philosophical. If you are here just to look at my pictures, then this post will bore you.
My good friend Andrew asked for my thoughts regarding what Bob Kaufman posted on his blog, WorshipMatters.com. The gist of the August 17th post was to reflect on what was said at the recent WorshipGod06 Conference – that “charismatics” value the sign gifts more than other gifts and over Scripture; and that “cessationists” love the Savior, His Word, and the church but are void of God’s presence to work in, through and among them.
Serendipitously, I was thinking about this for the past 24 hours before Andrew brought it to my attention. I have worked with many different churches throughout my ministry and I have wonderful friendships with both “charismatics” and “cessationists.” Is there a balance? I believe there is.
Let me first address the “cessationists” or as some may say “conservatives.” One of their strong characteristics is the love for God’s Word, which I appreciate to a point. Is there a biblical basis for the ceasing of God’s sign gifts? From what I have heard from “cessationists,” the basis for their argument primarily comes from experience, not necessarily from the Bible. They say that after the apostles died, the sign gifts ceased; that the sign gifts were only necessary for the establishment of the church and the authority of the apostles. Therefore, there is no need for the sign gifts because we now have His Word. But if we go by experience, which is a very strong convincer (I address this below), then how do we account for the people I know who speak in tongues, have healing gifts, and exercise the gift of prophecy?
My wife speaks in tongues. Do I tell her that what she is experiencing is false? When she received that gift, I had to rethink my theology and go back to the Word. Two Biblical scholars who make a wonderful biblical case for the continuance of sign gifts are Jack Deere (who graduated from Dallas, “Surprised by the Power of the Spirit”) and Wayne Grudem (who taught at Trinity Evangelical, “Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?” I believe Grudem is attending a Vineyard church, which strongly exercises the sign gifts). So just because someone has not “experienced” the sign gifts doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Secondly, let me address “charismatics.” One of their strong characteristics is the love of God through blessings and signs, which I also appreciate to a point. Is there a biblical basis for what they are experiencing? Yes…because it is a continuation of what began in the book of Acts. Has it ever stopped? Yes…but I believe not by God’s choice, but by man’s choice. I believe that somewhere along the line, between 100AD and 1800AD, the shift moved from the gifts to the Word.
I learned something profound from a pastor when I took a class on the book of Luke. The Historical Books of the NT came from experience first. In other words, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John first experienced Jesus and then wrote down what they experienced. And their understanding of Jesus grew over time…they did not understand Jesus all at one time. I believe the question, “When did Jesus become God?” was a valid question back around 50AD. Today we know that Jesus was God since eternity past. But for the early writers, the answer wasn’t so clear.
The book of Mark, which is the earliest gospel (55-65AD), begins with Jesus’ ministry. Mark may have thought that Jesus was God when the ministry began. The book of Matthew, the next earliest (58-68), primarily begins with Jesus’ birth. Matthew may have thought Jesus became God when He was born. Luke, the next earliest (60-68) begins with the visits by angels. Luke may have thought Jesus became God at the Holy Conception. John, the last gospel to be written (80-90) begins with pre-creation. All of this to say that the writers first had “experienced” Jesus then wrote it down. Experience came first, Scripture came second.
What has happened today is that conservatives have focused on Scripture and excused experience. At times, I have seen conservatives fall in love with God’s Word more than falling in love with God. On the other hand, I have seen charismatics fall in love with the experience, while excusing God’s Word.
Is there a balance? Yes. Fall in love with God. Is there a place for God’s Word? Yes…it gives us a greater understanding of God. Is there a place for experience? Yes…it also gives us a greater understanding of God. Both need to be kept in check. God’s Word balances the experience and the experience balances God’s Word. I’m not saying that experience can supersede what is written; what I am saying is that when an experience does happen, go back to Scripture to make sure It has not been violated. If it hasn’t, let it go. God is bigger and larger than our own understanding and He can do whatever He pleases as long as it doesn’t go against His nature.
But here is the HUGE wrench that affects both conservatives and charismatics. Both groups in their extreme form have a tendency to focus on man, rather than God. When conservatives approach the Bible, they ask the question, “Where am I in this? What can I get out of this?” rather than asking the question, “Where is God in this? What can I learn about God in this?” When charismatics experience the presence of God, they ask, “How can I get more of this experience? How can I get more of the blessing?” rather than asking the question, “What is God telling me about Himself through these blessings?” Remember, these are extreme forms.
What needs to happen is a focus back on God and His glory. Seek the God of God’s Word. Seek the Blessor of the blessings. I like what the Westminster Catechism says, “The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.”
My good friend Andrew asked for my thoughts regarding what Bob Kaufman posted on his blog, WorshipMatters.com. The gist of the August 17th post was to reflect on what was said at the recent WorshipGod06 Conference – that “charismatics” value the sign gifts more than other gifts and over Scripture; and that “cessationists” love the Savior, His Word, and the church but are void of God’s presence to work in, through and among them.
Serendipitously, I was thinking about this for the past 24 hours before Andrew brought it to my attention. I have worked with many different churches throughout my ministry and I have wonderful friendships with both “charismatics” and “cessationists.” Is there a balance? I believe there is.
Let me first address the “cessationists” or as some may say “conservatives.” One of their strong characteristics is the love for God’s Word, which I appreciate to a point. Is there a biblical basis for the ceasing of God’s sign gifts? From what I have heard from “cessationists,” the basis for their argument primarily comes from experience, not necessarily from the Bible. They say that after the apostles died, the sign gifts ceased; that the sign gifts were only necessary for the establishment of the church and the authority of the apostles. Therefore, there is no need for the sign gifts because we now have His Word. But if we go by experience, which is a very strong convincer (I address this below), then how do we account for the people I know who speak in tongues, have healing gifts, and exercise the gift of prophecy?
My wife speaks in tongues. Do I tell her that what she is experiencing is false? When she received that gift, I had to rethink my theology and go back to the Word. Two Biblical scholars who make a wonderful biblical case for the continuance of sign gifts are Jack Deere (who graduated from Dallas, “Surprised by the Power of the Spirit”) and Wayne Grudem (who taught at Trinity Evangelical, “Are Miraculous Gifts for Today?” I believe Grudem is attending a Vineyard church, which strongly exercises the sign gifts). So just because someone has not “experienced” the sign gifts doesn’t mean it doesn’t exist.
Secondly, let me address “charismatics.” One of their strong characteristics is the love of God through blessings and signs, which I also appreciate to a point. Is there a biblical basis for what they are experiencing? Yes…because it is a continuation of what began in the book of Acts. Has it ever stopped? Yes…but I believe not by God’s choice, but by man’s choice. I believe that somewhere along the line, between 100AD and 1800AD, the shift moved from the gifts to the Word.
I learned something profound from a pastor when I took a class on the book of Luke. The Historical Books of the NT came from experience first. In other words, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John first experienced Jesus and then wrote down what they experienced. And their understanding of Jesus grew over time…they did not understand Jesus all at one time. I believe the question, “When did Jesus become God?” was a valid question back around 50AD. Today we know that Jesus was God since eternity past. But for the early writers, the answer wasn’t so clear.
The book of Mark, which is the earliest gospel (55-65AD), begins with Jesus’ ministry. Mark may have thought that Jesus was God when the ministry began. The book of Matthew, the next earliest (58-68), primarily begins with Jesus’ birth. Matthew may have thought Jesus became God when He was born. Luke, the next earliest (60-68) begins with the visits by angels. Luke may have thought Jesus became God at the Holy Conception. John, the last gospel to be written (80-90) begins with pre-creation. All of this to say that the writers first had “experienced” Jesus then wrote it down. Experience came first, Scripture came second.
What has happened today is that conservatives have focused on Scripture and excused experience. At times, I have seen conservatives fall in love with God’s Word more than falling in love with God. On the other hand, I have seen charismatics fall in love with the experience, while excusing God’s Word.
Is there a balance? Yes. Fall in love with God. Is there a place for God’s Word? Yes…it gives us a greater understanding of God. Is there a place for experience? Yes…it also gives us a greater understanding of God. Both need to be kept in check. God’s Word balances the experience and the experience balances God’s Word. I’m not saying that experience can supersede what is written; what I am saying is that when an experience does happen, go back to Scripture to make sure It has not been violated. If it hasn’t, let it go. God is bigger and larger than our own understanding and He can do whatever He pleases as long as it doesn’t go against His nature.
But here is the HUGE wrench that affects both conservatives and charismatics. Both groups in their extreme form have a tendency to focus on man, rather than God. When conservatives approach the Bible, they ask the question, “Where am I in this? What can I get out of this?” rather than asking the question, “Where is God in this? What can I learn about God in this?” When charismatics experience the presence of God, they ask, “How can I get more of this experience? How can I get more of the blessing?” rather than asking the question, “What is God telling me about Himself through these blessings?” Remember, these are extreme forms.
What needs to happen is a focus back on God and His glory. Seek the God of God’s Word. Seek the Blessor of the blessings. I like what the Westminster Catechism says, “The chief end of man is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever.”
posted by Gung Ho at 5:20 PM
2 Comments:
gary,
thanks for that clear, biblical, and God-centered examination of "God-knowledge" v.s. "God-experience." i do agree that both must be embraced with much humility in order to understand and know God more truly. much mahalo's for articulating that so well! have a blessed day!
...andrew=)
p.s. have you heard John Piper's re-hashing of the Westminster Catechism?? i heard a message he gave where he argues that it could rightly read, "The chief end of GOD is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." sounds weird at first, but has some neat implications if you think about it!
Andrew,
I wholeheartedly agree with Piper, "The chief end of God is to glorify God and enjoy Him forever." Because God is glorious and perfect and holy, who better to live for than Himself? Is He going to live for man? Not primarily because man will fail. Therefore God lives for His glory first!
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